Amsterdam 1758, and a man is artfully seducing a woman. He is, to all appearances, Monsieur le Chevalier de Seingalt, a French government envoy selling shares to the Dutch; she is a courtesan, wellknown in Amsterdam for the fact that she never removes her veil. He sets her a challenge: if she can find a woman who has suffered after falling in love with him, she is entitled to resist his charms; if not, she should succumb. What Seingalt doesn't know is that he has already met the veiled woman many years ago, in another life. What Lucia doesn’t know is that Seingalt will go down in history as one of
the world’s greatest lovers, Casanova. The inspiration for this perfectly plotted, wonderfully romantic historical novel lies in Casanova’s memoirs, and a tiny reference to the woman he fell in love with at seventeen, but later met, hideously disfigured, in an Amsterdam brothel. Arthur Japin has expanded this anecdote into a deliciously entertaining and moving story of innocence and experience, love and sacrifice - all seen through eyes of the woman who first broke Casanova’s heart. His cunning narrative takes the reader on an entrancing journey from the canals of Amsterdam to those of Venice, painting a glorious portrait of the eighteenth century with all its contradictions of reason and instinct, wit and sensuality, head and heart.
http://www.arthurjapin.nl/boekboek/show/id=72466The complete review's Review:
In Lucia's Eyes is based on Casanova's life, events briefly mentioned in his memoirs: the Lucia of the title is a girl he knew (and adored) when she was fourteen, and then meets again when she is a disfigured prostitute in Amsterdam less than two decades later, when all that he once saw in her is now lost. Japin imagines her story, and lets her tell it, making of her a different sort of heroine in a clever reimagining of history.
Lucia and young Giacomo fall in an almost innocent sort of love -- Casanova restraining himself (more or less) because of the girl's tender age, and promising to come back for her when he has to leave the almost idyllic estate where she was raised and which he was visiting.. However, in his absence she becomes infected with and horribly disfigured by smallpox, and can't bear the thought of facing him, and she runs away from home. A smart girl, she picks up learning everywhere she goes, but remains tormented by her appearance.
Eventually, she comes to hide behind a veil -- and finds that this actually makes her beguiling again, men curious to know what hides behind it. But the veil isn't just so that she can go around without constantly being stared at. It serves her in other ways too:
I hide the world.
I have lowered a curtain before it.
Through that haze of lace and silk it looks so much softer As in The Two Hearts of Kwasi Boachi, Japin again brings an outsider to the Netherlands to comment on his homeland. Just as with Kwasi, true acceptance proves much more elusive than tolerance:
It was some time before I realized a thing assumed among the Dutch: Tolerance is not the equal of acceptance. Indeed, the two are more nearly opposites, the former sometimes serving as a subtle means of repression. To accept another is to embrace him unconditionally, now and always. But to tolerate him is to suggest in the same breath that he is rather an inconvenience, like a nagging pain or an unpleasant odor demanding temporary forbearance.
There are other encounters with Casanova, of course, the great lost love of her life. She can't quite come to terms with it, but by the end seems to have reconciled herself to her fate.
Japin invents a convincing voice for Lucia, and the life he imagines for her makes for a compelling and engaging story. Less 'a novel of Casanova' than of an outsider dealing with the near-impossibility of being accepted in a way most take for granted, In Lucia's Eyes is a good historical read. http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/niederld/japina1.htm
In Lucia's Eyes ~ for Feburary discussion at BookBuddies The following was posted by Bonnie Jacobs:
Lucia works as a servant girl in Italy and is engaged to be married. But after the pox disfigures her face, she flees in shame without telling her lover. Years later, as a reknowned Amsterdam courtesan who never goes out without her veil, Lucia is at the theater when she recognizes her long-lost fiancé, Giacomo Casanova; and she cannot resist the opportunity to encounter him again. Based on a woman who appeared briefly in Casanova’s legendary diaries, Lucia emerges as a brilliant woman who becomes every bit his match. In Lucia’s Eyes by Arthur Japin is an elegant and moving story of love denied and transformed.
According to brief references in his autobiography, the adult Casanova happens upon his lost adolescent love, Lucia, in an Amsterdam brothel where he is shocked to find that she has become, in his own words, "repulsive" (see the author’s postscript on page 233). Japin imagines this chance meeting of the former sweethearts through the eyes of the young woman herself, constructing Lucia’s own autobiography almost as a counterpart to Casanova’s celebrated memoirs. In Japin’s hands, the story of Lucia’s tragic life becomes a complex exploration of the meaning of love and human nature, as well as an unflinchingly honest portrait of Dutch prostitution in the eighteenth century.
The beautiful and innocent Lucia falls in love with the dashing young Casanova, whom she meets at her childhood home in rural northern Italy. When Casanova leaves for Venice to pursue his diplomatic career, promising to return in the spring to marry Lucia, tragedy strikes: Lucia becomes ill with smallpox. She survives the ordeal but her face is permanently scarred and ugly. Knowing that Casanova cannot pursue his career in Venice with an unsightly wife, she chooses to give him up — instructing her mother to tell him that in his absence she ran off with a courier. The rejected Casanova departs, and Lucia, in desperation, flees her home forever to make her way alone.
In Bologna, Lucia develops her new identity, Galathée de Pompignac, and becomes a secretary to Zélide, a French female archaeologist. As they travel together through Italy and France, Lucia’s education is furthered by the ideas of the Europe’s nascent Age of Enlightenment. However, after Zélide’s untimely death, Lucia moves on to Amsterdam where it is not long before her destitution drives her to the sordid life of a prostitute. Years later, after Lucia’s position has finally improved and she has become a highly-desired courtesan, Lucia’s emotional foundation is shaken to its core by a chance encounter with the love of her youth: Casanova. The reunion of the former lovers reveals the true meaning of love and survival for Lucia and, ultimately, brings her a chance for a new life.
If you want to know the WHOLE story, you could also read Giacomo Casanova's History of My Life. Known as a womanizer, Casanova retired at 60 to write about his life. Because every previous edition of Casonova's Memoirs had been abridged to suppress the author's political and religious views and tame his vivid, often racy, style, the literary world considered it a major event when Willard R. Trask's translation of the complete original text was published in six double volumes between 1966 and 1971. Trask's award-winning translation now appears in paperback for the first time (at 1512 pages long).
Een Schitterend Gebrek
The original Dutch title of our February book is: Een Schitterend Gebrek.
It means: A Magnificent Handicap. Now my question is: Why is the book titled this way?
Posted by Margreet at 6:56 AM 2 comments
Labels: ILE, ILE-DQ, Margreet
Tuesday, January 22, 2008
Saturday, February 2, 2008
ILE ~ discussion questions ~ Part 1
Here are some DQs for Part 1 ~ The Benefit of Love:
1. How do Lucia’s early relationships shape the person she becomes? What does the Countess of Montereale give Lucia that her own mother cannot?
2. Lucia claims to have faith in self-delusion. She says, "Self-delusion has the benefit of letting us believe that everything is still possible. I have a talent for that" (p. 14). She also says, "Truth is more than the things you see; that is why its value is only relative. I am very careful with it" (p. 16). And she goes so far as to say, "The only thing that can change reality is the mind. ... If one would change things, one needn’t touch them; one need only see them differently" (p. 46). In what ways does Lucia delude herself? When does she choose the truth over self-delusion?
3. Lucia says of men, "Most aim to please with little understanding of our pleasure. ... More than anything, men want that which has been withheld. A happy certainty is no match for a mystery denied. Given a choice, a man will always take the unknown" (pp. 8–10). What is Lucia’s opinion about men?
4. Why did Giacomo change his name to Seingalt?
Part 2 ~ A Great Imperfection (5-8)
5. At what point does Lucia realize that the Chevalier de Seingalt is Casanova? What does he do or say that causes her to realize that the adult Casanova is a different person than the young man whom she loved and who loved her? Why does this realization make her finally enter into the wager he proposes?
6. Lucia states in the beginning of the novel that she is annoyed to be aroused by the figure of Monsieur le Chevalier de Seingalt because she is "the one who arouses desire" [p. 6]. How does this early insight into Lucia’s personality affect the reader’s opinion of her as her story unfolds? Lucia seems to believe that even before her illness she was a "carnal" being, as evidenced by her "satisfaction" with her submission to the Count of Montereale [pp. 99–100]. Does Japin create a sense of inevitability in Lucia’s fate, even before her unfortunate illness?
7. Monsieur de Pompignac taught Lucia that intellectual reasoning and knowledge are paramount. Lucia learned her lessons well. While overcoming smallpox, Lucia concludes: "If my reason could save me from this moment, there was nothing from which it could not deliver me" [p. 93]. However, Zélide tells Lucia, "Reason is but the shell of consciousness, beneath which emotion is far more knowing" [p. 117]. Does Lucia reconcile Zélide’s teachings with those of Monsieur de Pompignac? Is the conflict of reason versus emotion ever reconcilable for her? Which serves Lucia better in her life: reason or emotion?
8. Does the Venice that Lucia visits with Zélide [p. 128] measure up to the image of that city impressed upon her by the Countess of Montereale [pp. 36–38]? Likewise, does the Amsterdam that Lucia inhabits [p. 163] measure up to the image of that city impressed upon her by Monsieur de Pompignac [p. 142]? How does Japin develop his portraits of these two cities through Lucia’s eyes?
Part 3 ~ Theatrum Amatorium (9-19)
9. Toby said, "I haven't finished the book yet, but I had been wondering if when I was younger, if I had hid my face from my old boyfriend, would he had realized it was me? Wouldn't he had recognized my voice? That is what I would ask Lucia & G." Good question. Bonnie wondered, "Wouldn't Giacomo have recognized the voice of his very recent lover when Lucia appeared as a decrepit old woman?" Although Lucia confides what she did, I'm not sure this would be enough to fool him. What do you think?
"I am as happy to see you prosperous," I said in Italian, attempting the higher, softer voice of my youth, "as you must be disturbed at seeing what has become of me."
10. How did Lucia's feelings toward her parents change, and why?
11. What is the significance to Lucia of the story of her feebleminded cousin Geppo (pp. 147-179)? (Bonnie: Although I just finished the book last night, I'm asking, "Who?" I know I read those 32 pages, but ... huh?)
12. Lucia states, "At last, I had stopped imagining myself in the gaze of others. . . . And so the mask I had put on to distance myself actually brought me closer to other people" (p. 198). How does wearing a veil bring Lucia closer to others? How does Lucia’s veil affect others’ perception of her? Does it affect how she perceives herself?
13. Of Amsterdam society Lucia says, "Tolerance is not the equal of acceptance. Indeed, the two are more nearly opposites, the former sometimes serving as a subtle means of repression" (p. 163). In the book, appearances and looks are very focal to the urban societies of eighteenth-century Europe. Is Western society in the twenty-first century any different than Amsterdam with respect to its treatment of scarred or unsightly people? How might contemporary Western society respond to a veiled woman?
14. Lucia says, "I too tried to carry the yoke of reason, but it was too heavy for me. I rejected it" (pp. 230—231). From Lucia’s point of view, the Age of Enlightenment resulted in confusion rather than progress. How does Casanova reflect this confusion? Can Lucia reject the confusion of her age entirely, or has she been shaped by it herself? Has Lucia’s education, her exposure to scholarship and reason in the house of the Morandi Manzolinis (pp. 103–108), benefited her in any way that she is not acknowledging? How might Lucia have fared differently if she had been schooled in religion and faith and never exposed to science and knowledge?
15. How are Lucia’s emotional and physical relations with the adult Casanova different from her relations with other men? What has Giacomo Casanova learned as a seducer of women? Is he more artful than Lucia when it comes to seduction? How does viewing Casanova through Lucia’s eyes alter the reader’s preconceptions of Casanova?
16. After her illness, Lucia deduces that she must abandon Casanova because staying with him would have "produced two unhappy people," whereas leaving him would have produced "only one" (p. 97). After meeting de Seingalt years later, she recalculates with hindsight: "Would the tender Giacomo of Pasiano have ever changed into the cynical Jacques de Seingalt if I had listened to my girlish heart and not subdued my fierce desire with clear-eyed foresight? What if I had dared to show him myself ravaged, trusting to our love, letting life and nature run their course instead of sacrificing myself like some inane operatic heroine? In that case, I alone would have been disfigured; now we both were" (p. 158). With the benefit of hindsight, might Lucia have trusted to their love if she had the chance to do it again? Should she have? How might Lucia’s life have turned out differently if Casanova had rejected her? Is Casanova in fact "disfigured" by Lucia’s youthful rejection of him?
17. Casanova states the lesson of his own life: "It is unpardonable sin not to take what love puts before you" (p. 223). What does Lucia think of this "lesson"? Why does Lucia not view this as her own life’s lesson?
18. After their wager is over, and Galathée removes her veil to become Lucia again for Casanova, she says of her appearance "at that moment it wasn’t a source of shame. ... Suddenly I saw, like some saintly vision, the lesson Fate had been trying to teach me" (p. 217). What did Lucia learn in that moment? Did this revelation make her suffering worthwhile in her view?
19. What in Seingalt’s final letter to Lucia makes her change her mind and leave with Jamieson?
ILE-Discussion Questions Part 2
5. At what point does Lucia realize that the Chevalier de Seingalt is Casanova? What does he do or say that causes her to realize that the adult Casanova is a different person than the young man whom she loved and who loved her? Why does this realization make her finally enter into the wager he proposes?
On page 155 it says, "When did I see my Giacomo in that silken Frenchman? In retrospect I can scarcely believe my recognition was not immediate, the very moment he was brought to my box at the theatre. . .In any case, when his wig blew off in the storm by the Amstel, there was no doubt."
At first, when he expresses his bitterness about women, she begins to see he has changed-"the bitterness born of his first betrayal, the contempt it had engendered for all other women." Also in his telling her of how he was wronged by a woman in the past, he "revealed that in his heart he accounted as some sort of cheap swindle what was my life's great tragedy." I think she always thought of his love being greater than hers, but as she realizes this is not true, she enters the wager to show that she was indeed worse off because of his love for her.
6. Lucia states in the beginning of the novel that she is annoyed to be aroused by the figure of Monsieur le Chevalier de Seingalt because she is "the one who arouses desire" [p. 6]. How does this early insight into Lucia’s personality affect the reader’s opinion of her as her story unfolds? Lucia seems to believe that even before her illness she was a "carnal" being, as evidenced by her "satisfaction" with her submission to the Count of Montereale [pp. 99–100]. Does Japin create a sense of inevitability in Lucia’s fate, even before her unfortunate illness?
I felt more like Japin didn't want to portray her as a victim, even though she experienced many tragedies in her life. She is a very strong woman to have made the decisions she has made.
7. Monsieur de Pompignac taught Lucia that intellectual reasoning and knowledge are paramount. Lucia learned her lessons well. While overcoming smallpox, Lucia concludes: "If my reason could save me from this moment, there was nothing from which it could not deliver me" [p. 93]. However, Zélide tells Lucia, "Reason is but the shell of consciousness, beneath which emotion is far more knowing" [p. 117]. Does Lucia reconcile Zélide’s teachings with those of Monsieur de Pompignac? Is the conflict of reason versus emotion ever reconcilable for her? Which serves Lucia better in her life: reason or emotion?
Okay, I was aware of this conflict between reason and emotion throughout the book, but couldn't quite grasp the final message. The comment from Zelide quoted above for me has a depth that my mind has been too lazy to fathom. In the end Lucia says, "For a long time I too tried to carry the yoke of reason, but it was too heavy for me. I rejected it." It seems that more than one winning over the other, we need both at different times in our lives and for different purposes.
8. Does the Venice that Lucia visits with Zélide [p. 128] measure up to the image of that city impressed upon her by the Countess of Montereale [pp. 36–38]? Likewise, does the Amsterdam that Lucia inhabits [p. 163] measure up to the image of that city impressed upon her by Monsieur de Pompignac [p. 142]? How does Japin develop his portraits of these two cities through Lucia’s eyes?
Lucia says on page 125, "Compared with my fallen dream (the tarnished image she had of Venice after she knows she will never be with Giacomo), the Venice I found with Zelide was far worse: sludge on the bridges, alleys choked with rubbish...", etc. As she mixes a bit with society, she finds it very much the same as the Countess described--when she goes to the theatre and nobody is even watching the show, they are all so absorbed in making their place in society. It confirms her opinion that Giacamo never would have been successful if she had been by his side.
Amsterdam only partially lived up to its reputation of "tolerance". I love this part: "It was some time before I realized a thing assumed among the Dutch: Tolerance is not the equal of acceptance. Indeed, the two are more nearly opposites, the former sometimes serving as subtle means of repression. To accept another is to embrace him unconditionally, now and always. But to tolerate him is to suggest in the same breath that he is rather an inconvenience, like a nagging pain or an unpleasant odor demanding temporary forbearance."
I guess he develops the portraits of the two cities by starting out with what she envisions, and then the comparison with reality, and her eventual adjustment to her world.
Posted by Chain Reader at 1:45 PM 4 comments
Labels: ILE, Shelley
ILE DQ
5. When Seingalt talked about the glass?
6. Both Lucia & G. are afraid of falling in love again. Lucia does what she has to do to survive.
7. Reason. If she followed her heart, she would never let G. go & then there would be no conflict.
8. From what I can remember, Venice was filthy, I think. Anyway, Lucia can only think of G.
Zelide said that she wanted a girlfriend. Okay, we all like to have friends, but when she wanted both of them to get naked, was it because Zelide was gay or just a free thinker? Lucia seemed to indicate that Zelide wanted to see Lucia naked. Then again, maybe Zelide is the type of person that has a big personality, ah outgoing, dramatic...
It's finally getting interesting. G.'s brother recognizes her. Does he believe her when she denies who she is? I was shocked when he ripped up his drawing of her & threw it into the water. OMG!!!! Don't rip up your arwork!!!!! Geesh! Just let her keep it.
Posted by Toby at 1:15 AM 0 comments
Labels: ILE, Toby
Toby's DQ ~ why the name change?
Toby asked, "Why did Giacomo change his name to Seingalt?"
Since I (Bonnie) don't know, I'm hoping the answer comes up in the next section of the book. When it does, somebuddy jump in here and give us the answer. Inquiring minds want to know.
Posted by Bonnie Jacobs at 12:53 AM 0 comments
Labels: Bonnie, ILE, ILE-DQ, Toby
ILE's QUESTIONS Part 1
1) Lucia grows up in an upper class family,the masters, even though her parents are considered lower class, the sevants. Lucia gets a private tutor to educate her. She also has the freedom to mingle with upper class men & encouraged to fall in love with an upper class man. The old lady's doing. That old man creeps me out. He tells Lucia, who's about 15 years old. You are ripe now. I can smell it. He describes the smell & greedily smells the air. Ich!!!!!!! Run Lucia, Run!!!!!
2) She gives up the love of her life because she believes that 1 person being happy is better than both being unhappy. ( I've read alot, so not sure which part this belongs in.)
3) Who knows what Lucia thinks of men! She thinks so much, but she is basically just being honest about her feelings. Maybe she thinks that men like to chase women & then dump them when they catch them.
I found the names too long to remember, & have to ask myself, which guy are they talking about now. It would be easier if they said Bob, Mike or Harry. LOL!
Posted by Toby at 12:23 AM 0 comments
Labels: ILE, Toby
Tuesday, February 5, 2008
ILE-DQ ~ When did she know?
Neco, you wrote:
One thing I thought about as coming to the end of reading this part was when did Lucia know that Seingalt was Giacomo? When she first saw him walking from her boat? At the theater? That night at the house before the storm? Or didn't she know until he told the story of the girl he first loved to her?
Now that's a good DQ! I think she recognized him right away, but she doesn't want to reveal herself, so she keeps quiet, wondering when Giacomo will realize it's her. But I think he doesn't remember her at all, she was just a child to have fun with, and she has gone from his memory long ago. And to think she sacrificed herself for his sake (well, that's what I think after reading part 1). We'll see how it goes.
Posted by Margreet at 1:01 PM 1 comments
Labels: ILE, ILE-DQ, Margreet
PHEW!!
What an immense relief to read your comments, Bonnie, Neco and Shirley. I finished part one last week, and put the book aside to keep to our schedule for a change...And to be honest that wasn't a big sacrifice. I seem to be not so very interested in Lucia and Giacomo. Esp. Giacomo, I find him a narcissist jerk (which he probably was!). To slowly unravel Lucia's story, as told by Japin, is sort of fascinating though.
I couldn't do anything with the discussion questions, I was wondering if they were about the book I am reading,,hahahahahaha.
Lucia's childhood sounds like a happy one, living on a big estate, favoured by the landowner/lady. To crawl into bed with Giacomo with her parents' permission sounded very weird. She ended up as a courtisane, or prostitute. After only having read part one as yet, I don't know why this happened.
I had to laugh when you, Bonnie, wrote that you fell asleep even the first time around. Maybe when we have finished the book we will realize what a great work of literature this is, but now I don't really see it. I find the buildup of the story too 'artistic', if you know what I mean. Sorry folks!
Posted by Margreet at 12:50 PM 0 comments
Labels: ILE, Margreet
Questions on Part 1
Whew! I'm glad that I wasn't alone in not having any insight on the posted questions. I read the book and enjoyed the tale, but unfortunately remember less than I'd like of the details. It was due back to the library otherwise I would have tried to have kept more to the schedule.
Posted by Shirley at 5:50 AM 0 comments
Labels: ILE, Shirley
Part One of ILE
I must admit I was feeling a bit bewildered and waiting to see what someone else would post as their answers before posting. So when Bonnie posted:
Okay, I have finally finished reading Part 1. Now, sigh, I look at the questions in light of what I've read ... and I don't have answers.
I felt less alone in my confusion and more confident in rereading and posting up some sort of answer.
One thing I thought about as coming to the end of reading this part was when did Lucia know that Seingalt was Giacomo? When she first saw him walking from her boat? At the theater? That night at the house before the storm? Or didn't she know until he told the story of the girl he first loved to her?
Okay, going to go reread bits of part one now.
Posted by Neco at 12:40 AM 0 comments
Labels: Anne, ILE, Neco
Monday, February 4, 2008
ILE ~ a look at Part 1
Okay, I have finally finished reading Part 1. (You ask how I could post questions when I hadn't even read the assigned section? Easy. I found questions online and posted only those that referred to pages within Part 1.) Now, sigh, I look at the questions in light of what I've read ... and I don't have answers.
How do Lucia’s early relationships shape the person she becomes?
I don't know. She seemed to live an idyllic life at Pasiano, thinking it belonged to her family, unaware that her parents actually worked for the owner ... and even the owner (the countess) thinking of Lucia like a grandchild. I'm confused. Maybe I'm confused because I need to sort out which scenes in Part 1 happened when Lucia was a child (a 14-year-old "child" who regularly climbed into bed with Giacomo) and which scenes told me about the mature Lucia playing mind games with "Seingalt." Maybe I need to re-read all I've read, marking the passages as "now" and "then"? But, sigh, I kept falling asleep when I tried to read it the FIRST time around. Maybe I'm just not interested enough in how he did/does/will get her into bed ... or not. And somehow that's where this whole story seems to be heading:
In his embrace, I felt the odd union of perfect safety and unrestrained appetite. (p. 66)
What does the Countess of Montereale give Lucia that her own mother cannot?
I don't know ... maybe schooling Lucia to become the wife of a diplomat?
The countess, who had been midwife to the frolic-some birth of our relations, was only too pleased to be god-mother of our future happiness. ... Toward this end, she asked her husband ... to extend Monsieur de Pompignac's appointment. With his work accomplished and Adriana's wedding behind him, the teacher had already packed his bags when he received the happy news that his employment at idyllic Pasiano was to be extended. He seemed quite confident of being able to manage a rather different sort of instruction with his new charge: In the coming autumn and winter, the countess had ordered, he was to school me in the manners of gentlefolk and make of me a wife befitting a diplomat. (p. 67)
Lucia says of men, "Most aim to please with little understanding of our pleasure. ... More than anything, men want that which has been withheld. A happy certainty is no match for a mystery denied. Given a choice, a man will always take the unknown" (pp. 8–10). What is Lucia’s opinion about men?
I definitely get the feeling she doesn't think highly of most (maybe any) of them: "There is nothing a man can say to a woman that I haven't heard before" (p. 8), she thinks. And on the same page: "Some women live for sweet talk. I would rather go without. But how is a man to know that? Most aim to please with little understanding of our pleasure." It was to Seingalt himself that she said, "Give it up, sir ... You have met your match" (p. 10).
Posted by Bonnie Jacobs at 8:02 PM 0 comments
Posted by Bonnie Jacobs at 8:15 PM Thursday, February 14, 2008
Zorro
Posted Apr 24, 10:36 AM
Karin,
What is the attitude in the Netherlands toward prostitutes?
What is the difference between a prostitute and a courtesan?
Is there a different word for 'love' in Dutch that means something different from what these women provide?
The title of Part 1 is 'The Benefit of Love'
Does that 'Love' word mean something different than the love we have for our husbands?
Are you reading in English or in Dutch? How would you rate this translation?
Zorro
Did any of you watch John Adams recently on HBO. You may have noticed the white make-up that the French women wore. The girls Giovanna and Danae were applying makeup before they went out. "I had used Spanish paper to apply a light blush over my protegees white lead cheeks..p. 22
Here is a little information about the lead (that was poisonous)that they applied to their faces.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Women wore white lead and chalk on their faces ....
During the European middle ages, pale skin was a sign of wealth. Sixth century women sought drastic measures to achieve that look by bleeding themselves, although, in contrast, Spanish prostitutes wore pink makeup. Thirteenth century affluent women donned pink lipstick as proof they could afford synthetic makeup.
During the Italian Renaissance, lead pain was used to lighten the face, which was very damaging to the wearer. Aqua Toffana was a popular face powder named for its creator, Signora Toffana. Made from arsenic, Signora Toffana instructed her rich clientele to apply the makeup only when their husbands were around. It's interesting to note that Tofana was executed some six hundred dead husbands later.
Cosmetics were seen as a health threat in Elizabethan England, although women wore egg whites over their faces for a glazed look.
During the reign of Charles II, heavy makeup began to surface as a means to contradict the pallor from being inside due to illness epidemics.
During the French Restoration in the 18th century, red rouge and lipstick were used to give the impression of a healthy, fun-loving spirit.
Eventually, people in other countries became repulsed by excessive makeup and claimed the "painted" French had something to hide.
During the Regency era, the most important item was rouge, which was used by most everyone. At that time, eyebrows were blackened and hair was dyed. To prevent a low hairline, a forehead bandage dipped in vinegar in which cats dung had been steeped was worn. Most of the country dwellers' makeup recipes made use of herbs, flowers, fat, brandy, vegetables, spring water and, of course, crushed strawberries. During this era, white skin signified a life of leisure while skin exposed to the sun indicated a life of outdoor labor. In order to maintain a pale complexion, women wore bonnets, carried parasols, and covered all visible parts of their bodies with whiteners and blemish removers. Unfortunately, more than a few of these remedies were lethal.
The most dangerous beauty aids during this time were white lead and
mercury. They not only eventually ruined the skin but also caused hair loss, stomach problems, the shakes, and could even cause death. Although these dangers became known through the death of courtesan Kitty Fisher, the majority of women continued to use these deadly whiteners.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
kvb1
Posted Apr 24, 12:46 PM
Hi Zorro!
Prostitution is somewhat allowed here in the Netherlands. It is against the law but we have something that's called "gedoog beleid". Gedogen means allowing it under strict rules and regulations (beleid means policy). Same as for drugs and other things we Dutch are famous for! Even in the century Casanova and Lucia lived in prostitutes were allowed. Did you never heard of the red light district in Amsterdam (we have one here in Alkmaar too)? It's very famous among tourists. Actually I hate that it is a tourist attraction! Every town, city or country has prostitutes, whore houses or whatever and here they are making a tourist attraction out of it. Just like it doesn't exist in other countries! DUH! And like in every good red light district there is a police station at the corner!
There is no difference between a courtesan or a prostitute work wise except for the fact a courtesan is a higher class prostitute and only works for the rich and upper class. Most courtesans were kept women and had houses and money. They also were invited to dinner parties, theater etc. to keep the men company. They were educated and most of the time they knew something about politics and spoke their languages. More like a Geisha I guess.
"Love" - no, it's exactly the same word. Liefde means Love. I have the Dutch version and the translation is accurate. You can also translate it as The Advantage of Love.
Karin
Zorro
Posted Apr 24, 8:34 PM Hide Post
Would you say that the Boleyn girls were raised to be courtesans? Yes, it seems that their family expected this from them.
kvb1
Posted Apr 25, 2:00
I'm not sure but maybe that is the right word for girls who were raised to marry a king or royalty. In those days it was very common. Families protected their grounds, wealth or inheritance by doing this. It was also common to find protection or finance war. Or just simple greed or whatever reasons they might have. Poor girls. Actually it is not that long ago women were free to choose their own partners. Even now with royalties I'm not so sure it is a free choice.
Zorro
Posted Apr 25, 5:08 AM Hide Post
A courtesan in mid-16th century usage referred to a mistress, especially one associated with wealthy, powerful, or upper-class men who provided luxuries and status in exchange for her companionship. In Renaissance Europe, courtesans played an important role in upper-class society, sometimes taking the place of wives at social functions.[citation needed] As it was customary during this time for royal couples to lead separate lives—commonly marrying simply to preserve bloodlines and to secure political alliances—men would often seek sexual gratification and companionship from a courtesan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtesan
Ramona
Posted Apr 25, 8:31 AM Hide Post
Zorro, Thanks for the info on courtesan's. Sounds much nicer than the name we give these women nowadays--sounds much like high priced call girls. Ramona
Posted Apr 25, 8:40 AM Hide Post
Karin, I found the info you shared on prostitution & drugs in the Netherlands very interesting. I think most cities & towns have their "red light districts" although it's not advertised openly. Have to share a funny story that I think I may have shared before. When I was a teenager & was waiting for my date to pick me up one evening, the light went out on our front porch. My naive mother could only find a red light bulb to replace it so when my date was late, I wondered what was going on. When he finally came to the house, he told us he had driven by several times before stopping because Mom had a red light burning at the front door! LOL! We laughed about that for years. Ramona
What a great story!
Karin
quote:
Originally posted by Ramona:
Karin, I found the info you shared on prostitution & drugs in the Netherlands very interesting. I think most cities & towns have their "red light districts" although it's not advertised openly. Have to share a funny story that I think I may have shared before. When I was a teenager & was waiting for my date to pick me up one evening, the light went out on our front porch. My naive mother could only find a red light bulb to replace it so when my date was late, I wondered what was going on. When he finally came to the house, he told us he had driven by several times before stopping because Mom had a red light burning at the front door! LOL! We laughed about that for years. Ramona
Morning Karin and Ramona, and anyone else who is reading ILE.
I have been considering the conflict in my mind about the 17 year old Casanova as the seminarian, abbe, priest, who meets Lucia in the country home, Pasiano. And also thinking about her lack of inhibition with him (his fondling, and their time spent in bed). And the apparant approval of her parents. At 14, we have seen other girls in other stories of the same period, as old enough for marriage. However they keep talking about her being too young, too naive, etc. And why is a priest up to all this anyway? What are your thoughts?
Posted Apr 27, 5:41 AM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by kvb1:
Hi Zorro!
I think the choice of becoming a priest was a bad one. Bad judgement by himself and/or his parents because apparently his talents lay elsewhere. In those days families, with a lot of sons, always send one of the sons to a monastery to become a priest (especially the oldest son). If you could afford the education it had a lot of status having a son as a priest. And you were almost sure you've earned your place in heaven by doing this. Altho the story doesn't tell I'm sure this was the case with Casanova's family too.
I'm not sure when it comes to Lucia. I just think because she was living and raised in a very sheltered environment and being the girl she was (happy, playful and loving) her parents and especially Casanova thought she was too young. They were looking to her character more than to her age, don't you think?
Karin
Zorro
Posted May 3, 7:41
I am really taken aback by the book! I did not realize that I was to be reading about the life of a whore! What an eye-opener! I probably would not have chosen to read the book if I had known what it was about...
I am not quite finished and I hope I get to something that makes me feel glad I spent the time reading this book. Karin, what is it about the book that caused the author to win the awards and accolades?
Zorro
Posted May 3, 8:43 PM Hide Post
Is a "spin house" a whore house? Is that what the places in the Netherlands are called with the big windows with the girls in the windows where the men walk by and they pick out a prostitute?
Boy those scenes with the crazy woman with syphillus eating away her face and mind were awful! There is just so much in this book that I am just not getting! What is the point of these scenes?
